My interview with Dr. Douglas Estes, Lead Pastor of Trinity Church in Mesa, AZ, continued from here.

#5 A PhD needs to accept that he or she will be discriminated against.

I hate to say it, but when you are a (unfamous) pastor with a PhD, you’re going to be prejudiced against. Not to get off track from this post, but I’ve been told a lot of not-nice things over the years about my wearing two hats. I’d love to tell you that it was elitist academics who have been the most discouraging, but that would not be true (in my case). 70/30, most of the prejudice has been in the pastoral, not academic, world. The good news here is that 90% of the prejudiced comments have been from other pastors, not from ‘regular folks’ in the pew (unless they are on a hiring team, but if the hiring team is already talking to you 50/50 they have already ‘gotten over’ the fact that you have a PhD). If you’re going to be a pastor, you might as well know that now, because the job is so difficult when done right, most pastors struggle with insecurity. Badly. But before I let academics off the hook, yes, be prepared for some academics (and editors of journals and books) to tell you that if you don’t have “Prof” coming after your name, your chances are more limited. (In that situation, I have to say more are not being snide, just reflecting their reality; I always smile and tell them I’ll give it my best shot anyway).

#6 A PhD needs to realize churches don’t want to hire someone who is “settling.” This is true of any job, anywhere, but especially one with professional expectations such as a pastor (or professor). Oh, and by the way, when a PhD lies to a church board and says, “Yes, I did always want to be a pastor,” they hurt all the other PhDs coming up who really did. So, just don’t. Better to be honest and say something like, “When I was younger, I did want to be a professor, but with everything that has gone on in my life the last few year, I’ve come to the very personal conviction that my calling may be changing from academics to pastoral ministry. I’m excited by the possibility, and I hope you are too.” But only if you mean it.

#7 A PhD will need to work harder than a non-PhD.

Sorry, but it’s true. Once you get those letters after your name, there’s an albatross around your neck. Admit it. Own it. It’ll be hard—I can testify. But throwing a hissy fit from your frustrated expectations is not going to get you anywhere. Be confident in your calling (see #1).

I’m sure commenters below will cite exceptions to these, and they do exist. But if so, PhDs need to make sure both they and the church are exceptions.

To your last question, I’m a little pessimistic about whether a PhD can be hired into pastoral ministry and come to love it over time. I’m sure it happens, and perhaps one of your other interviewees will come from that perspective (and I’d love to hear it). But to me this is the exception rather than the rule. I just know too many academically-oriented people who neither teach nor pastor, and they are, quite sadly, usually very bitter. This is probably true of most people who desired a profession but for whom it didn’t work out. Having said that, I think it is more likely to be the other way around: That a professor, as they mature in their career, may come to love the local church more, and be more involved. This scenario is much more likely.

What has your education done to change the way you imagine educating a local church?

Since my education has been a long progression (BS, to MDiv, to ThM, to PhD, to PostDoc), it’s hard to point solely to one program, like the PhD. But if we just take the post-MDiv educational experiences, I think the biggest change has been to realize you’re not ever going to ‘get there.’ The educational and spiritual formation of people in pastoral ministry is a lifelong process. Be strategic, for sure, but there is no end. And past topics need to be continually reminded and refreshed.

Whenever someone hears me teach in a church context, and knows my academic background, the first comment/question is always: “How is it possible that you teach so simply?” They ask this because they assume my church teaching times will be academic, or advanced, when in reality, I often aim for a ‘8^th grade listening level.’ The reason for this is that I believe most anything worth teaching should be able to be explained to a middle-schooler (not all the details, of course, but the principles, certainly). 

Many people who are open to doing pastoral ministry are concerned that the vocation has morphed in the United States to the point where it is all about raising funds for a new building, counseling married couples with rebellious teenagers, and quickly writing a sermon in their spare time. What have you done to make sure that as a pastor you have time to write and study, to stay engaged in academia, and to make sure that your role as pastor doesn’t prevent you from doing the these things?

Well, Brian, my first reaction to those ‘many people’ would be that they have a very romanticized view of pastoral ministry, and not one based in reality (ever, if Paul’s writings are any indication). Using one of your examples, raising funds for a new building has always been a part of pastoral ministry—cathedrals (as existed for most of church history) were never cheap to build, and even Paul arranged for the transport of money (1 Cor 16:4). And pastors in other parts of the world/throughout history have to counsel married couples and their little angels, too. I am concerned about this romanticized view, because I think unrealistic expectations lead to unhappy pastors in unhappy churches (this is true of any new pastor). So I cannot strongly enough urge any PhD-to-pastor to understand and accept what real-world pastoring really is—and flush any romanticized versions they may have, for the sake of their new church, their family, and their own personal emotional health. Having said that, there is no doubt that pastoral ministry is more ‘professional-business-like’ than it has been in past centuries. But it still doesn’t change the fact that no PhD is going to get a church where they can spend an inordinate amount of time in personal study (excepting a theologian-in-residence or similar, and are those jobs few!).

As far as your pastor role preventing you from engaging in academia, there are three factors. First, a PhD has to keep in mind their primary job is pastoral ministry. Second, it really helps to have a church who appreciates your academic side (I’ve been blessed with that in my last two pastoral roles; but quite a few churches I have interviewed with over the years has told me that for me to get the job, “you can’t write any more books.” Unless you’re starving (and called!), don’t take those kinds of jobs). Third, you need to develop excellent boundaries. You need to do this anyway, for your interpersonal relationships, but establishing good boundaries with your church is critical. You will always have exceptions, but they too can be managed if you have clear expectations worked out with your church. A healthy church will understand and care enough about you to work with you (if you’re called to an unhealthy church, that’s another issue for another post).

If you were preparing to put together a pastoral staff would you desire to hire someone else who has done doctoral work to function as an associate pastor or director of education or do you think someone with administrative experience is more valuable?

Because my church already has a PhD (me), having another pastor with a PhD would be neither a plus or minus (unless the church became so large that it would possibly make sense as a desirable skill set). For me, I would evaluate the individual’s ministry experience and giftedness for the particular role. Also, balance is good: My first planned hire at Trinity is our new Executive Pastor, an exceptional leader/coach/people catalyst who happens to have very little formal theological training at this point in his life (though extremely well read). To me this provides a good blend for the top pastoral leadership of our church (a regular guy plus a smarty-pants).

I would have no reason to discriminate against a PhD for a staff position, but being one myself, and knowing some built-in strengths and weaknesses, the interview with me would probably be more pointed than one for an average church search team!

Finally, if there is one thing you could say is necessary for a church to incorporate into their “philosophy of education” what would it be?

This is a little difficult to answer, because I know Near Emmaus’ readership is pretty broad. I can only speak to those who share similar church values to myself. But my view of the one necessary thing is to correctly and accurately handle the Scriptures, with humility and the recognition that no one will ever fully ‘get it’ before they pass on from this world. I’m not saying there are not clear standards for orthodoxy (quite clearly there are), but that the working out, explaining, understanding, internalizing and dialoging with others requires a flexible mind and a loving heart.

 ____________________

If you enjoyed this interview you may enjoy the short series done by our former contributor Robert Jimenez titled, “The Blogging Pastor” where he interview the following people:

Mark Stevens
Dr. Jim West
Brian Fulthorp

Douglas Estes was an adjunct professor at Western Seminary (San Jose, CA) when I met him. He taught my Koine Greek sequence. Also, he was the lead pastor at Berryessa Valley Church. I never saw him in his pastoral vocation, but I do sense that I was pastored by him. Estes was one of the most forthright professors when it came to discussing what it meant to move toward doing doctoral work. Also, he went above and beyond to make sure that I had the opportunity to learn. As a full-time seminary student with a full-time graveyard shift job that often came to class half-dead he proved to be quite the educator since I survived his classes. When I began my ThM he spent over an hour on the phone one day talking me through things I needed to consider. I know that this man is a first rate pastor-scholar and mentor. 

Since I have been writing a series on “Educating the local church” (see Pt. I: introduction ; Pt. II: the concerns of pastors ; Pt. III: what do congregations need to know? ; Pt. IV: how do we do it? ; Pt. V: introducing critical scholarship) I thought it might be wise to interview a few pastors. I wanted to know how pastors approach the task of educating the church. Estes is one of several who agreed. One of the things that led me to ask if he’d participate is the fact that he graduated with his Ph.D. from the University of Nottingham (UK), he has taught at the seminary level, he has written high-level academic works (see The Temporal Mechanics of the Fourth Gospel: A Theory of Hermeneutical Relativity in the Fourth Gospel and his forthcoming The Questions of Jesus in John: Logic, Rhetoric and Persuasive Discourse) as well as a popular level book discussing ecclesiology in the virtual world titled SimChurch: Being the Church in the Virtual World, and he is a pastor.

As the academic job market shrinks many doctoral students and graduates will need to ask themselves whether they (A) want to fight for one of the few teaching jobs, (B) create or find some alternative form of employment that allows them to use their skills outside the classroom (e.g., editorial work), (C) enter into the pastorate or some other service in the local church or one’s denomination, or (D) some combination of the above.

I hope this interview (two parts) will benefit students and teachers, academics and pastors, and all those who share a concern about the future of academia, academics, and education in the church!

Dr. Estes, can you tell me a bit about your current pastoral ministry?

I’m currently the Lead Pastor at Trinity Church, in Mesa, AZ, a suburb of Phoenix. Trinity is a fully multiethnic church, with Sunday services in both English and Spanish. Many would describe the church’s style as “contemporary,” more than “traditional”—I teach in jeans and play electric guitar (a Rickenbacker) with the band. Day to day, I manage a staff of about 12 people, plus additional paid workers. I’ve only been in this role for a few months, so we are currently working through our initial strategic planning which includes rebranding and revisioning.

When you began your doctoral studies at the University of Nottingham (UK) did you enter the program with the thought that you might do pastoral ministry or did you expect to work toward a professorship?

I entered my PhD program intending to mainly work in pastoral ministry. Or, perhaps more accurately, I hoped to do both, but my natural inclinations plus the job market made it pretty likely my ideal role was always going to be pastor as my first job and academic as my second job. I should also point out that I had several years of experience as a pastor prior to doing my PhD.

Do some people who do doctoral work “settle” for the pastoral vocation? What are some of the dangers of this attitude? Are you hopeful that these people can come to love the pastorate over time? 

Yes, in my experience there are and will be a number of PhD-grads who every year, for various reasons but mainly the job market, end up settling for a pastoral vocation. Before I answer your good questions, let me say that my answers paint the situation with a broad brush: Each PhD-to-pastor situation is different, with different skills, personalities and gifts, and different pastoral contexts, so there is no way that this will cover everyone—I can only speak in generalities.

Still, I think there are many very, very serious dangers of the attitude that an academic should “settle” for the pastoral vocation. I will list my top seven.

#1 A PhD really needs to be called to the pastoral vocation.

In this context, I don’t care how a person defines the word ‘called.’ Being a pastor is not like flipping burgers (no offense to all the food-service folks out there!) Because of the demands placed on the average pastor, it needs to be a job that you want to do. Nobody wants to visit a doctor or dentist who is not excited about their profession—nobody wants to go to a church with a pastor who is disinterested in pastoring (or worse, just there for a paycheck).

#2 A PhD needs to recognize that church is not a re-education camp.

Regardless of whether the church you are interested in pastoring is a “reach people” kind of church, or a “love people” kind of church, nobody needs a pastor whose primary goal is to re-educate their people because, for example, their people’s view of the diversity in the Judean religion during the Second Temple period is not up to snuff with the profs at Whatever University. Nobody likes a smarty-pants. This is not to say that an academic shouldn’t offer special classes or electives at their future church on their academic interest-areas; but if on Sunday morning your main teaching topic’s title sounds like a new book release from Brill or SBL, something is dreadfully wrong. Know why? Because in 99% of churches, people come in thinking about why their spouse is mad with them, how they are going to get their kids to behave, whether they have enough money to take vacation this year—and not whether the best word to describe Paul’s intertextual relations is an “echo.” If an academic wants to be a pastor, they need to care about their people, and caring about them starts with asking them what they need.

#3 A PhD needs to understand they can hurt people as a pastor.

In an academic setting, you can hurt people by being rude or aloof, giving them a bad grade, or teaching from a highly skewed perspective. But that relationship is transactional; students pay money and have certain expectations of how the relationship between professor and student will go. There are rules, and if it doesn’t go well, there are avenues for recourse. Being a pastor is quite different; people attend church for non-transactional reasons—to be loved, to feel hope, to find faith, to grow in knowledge of the Bible, and to engage themselves and others in areas of spiritual health. If a PhD-turned pastor (really, any disinterested pastor) doesn’t get this when people come to them for encouragement or growth, they can hurt those people. If a person comes in for counseling, they don’t need to know what the text says in the original language, they need some empathy (empathy then orig lang can work). People entrust their pastors with a lot of hope that their pastor will help them—which is why pastor-scandals are so hurtful to people. When you’re a pastor, you’re messing with people’s lives—their emotional, mental and spiritual health. A PhD has to take it seriously and not treat people as a case study, a widget or a curio.

#4 A PhD needs to understand being a pastor is hard work.

Every job is hard, but being a pastor is decidedly hard work. A pastor’s primary job is people: not administration, not study, not education. People jobs are always the hardest (imho). Many years ago I worked as a chemist in a lab with robots and almost no people—talk about peace and tranquility!—as robots don’t have expectations you can’t possibly meet or get angry when you fail to reach them. To pick a fight for a moment, I also believe, on average, being a pastor is much harder than being a professor. As a pastor, you have more people to manage, more bosses to deal with, more random expectations that pop up, more admin and more committees, plus that 2 AM call that so-and-so’s daughter has locked herself in the bathroom and is prepping to slit her wrists. It bears repeating, but if you’re an academic considering a pastoral career, make sure you talk to several ‘fully-engaged’ pastors to get an understanding of exactly what you will be doing in your new career.

Continues with Pt. 2 tomorrow….