Near Emmaus

Vocational Endurance: Another (Possible) Benefit of Seminary Training

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As someone who comes from Pentecostal circles it was a struggle for me to make the decision several years ago to pursue a path in academics. I have heard many a sermon demeaning Christians who attempt to “reconcile the gospel with the wisdom of the world”. It almost felt naughty to ask certain questions and to discuss certain possibilities.

I think it was a fair warning from my Pentecostal friends nevertheless. As I noted in a comment on the post that JohnDave Medina wrote this morning, regarding whether or not the anti-intellectual element of Christianity can do good exegesis (read it here), this is a mixed bag for me. I have seen many brilliant people who make terrible Christians. I read the writings of plenty of scholars who must be respected as academics, but they do not understand the gospel nor the mission of the church.

Yet what the church doesn’t realize is there is something very, very beneficial about receiving vocational training for something like the pastorate. Yes, the education is a good thing! It can actually benefit the churches being served by those who took the time to prepare academically.

One area of importance is vocational endurance. This morning Marc Cortez mentioned an article by John Ortberg where he says he read that ninety-percent of those who go into vocational ministry will leave it for another occupation (likely an inflated statistic). Marc notes that this is far from true regarding seminary graduates (read Marc’s commentary here). According to the Association of Theological Schools (ATS) it has noted that most seminary graduates stay in vocational ministry. Also, Marc notes that the Auburn Center did a study confirming this (see here) where only five percent left after the first five years and ten percent after ten years. Of course, as with any statistic, we must take this with a grain of salt realizing these things are very complicated and there is always a lot of data that lies beneath the surface not fully examined. That being said, it seems that there is a striking increase in longevity amongst seminary graduates trained for vocational ministry in juxtaposition to the health of the vocation overall!

One thing that I appreciate about Western Seminary, where Marc teaches and I am a student, is that it is an educational institution that focuses on preparing people for the pastorate and other church ministry functions. Even the more academically inclined amongst us do our thinking in the context of the church (even though I know some readers think I do no such thing). Seminary education is not all about whether or not you can explain the merits and demerits of the JEDP theory or the historical context of diaspora Jews in the Roman Empire to whom the Apostle Paul went first in his mission. That is important, sure, but if you are going into ministry to serve the church it is secondary.

Therefore, a seminary education is a very, very good thing because I think the statistics show a couple of things (my interpretations): (1) Seminarians tend to be more prepared for the challenging valleys of ministry. (2) The investment is often made before there is any return; therefore, you don’t usually see seminarians going into seminary, paying 30K + on a degree, in order to become money-makers and culture’s movers-and-shakers. Rather, seminarians go into their programs to be better prepared to feed the flock of God and because they actually shake a little bit at the thought of ruining people’s lives as misguided pastors due to lack of preparation. Remember, it is often the case that seminarians will learn from people who have been at this vocational ministry thing for some time and they don’t just talk theory!

So I said all that to say that I am glad to hear seminary seems to produce people with vocational endurance, and I want to encourage all those seminarians who went to difficult route when they saw some of their more talented peers go big quickly, it was wise to prepare yourself for the long journey ahead!

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Author: Brian LePort

I'm a blogger with a MA in Biblical and Theological Studies and a Master of Theology (ThM).

41 thoughts on “Vocational Endurance: Another (Possible) Benefit of Seminary Training

  1. I think ministarial vitality is one of the biggest strengths of getting theological education beyond the undergrad level – and even a reason to keep going to the PhD or DMin level.

  2. @Brian F: I agree. I think returning for a doctorate or another master’s at some point is healthy for the pastor and the church.

  3. Pingback: statisitical support for theological education? « συνεσταύρωμαι: living the crucified life

  4. This is great stuff! And I so glad you made that decision to pursue academics. I say it’s time to light that anti-intellectualism from my Pentecostal brothers and sisters. Enough said.

  5. @TC: Thanks! I do think Pentecostalism itself would contribute greatly to global Christianity even more if it did not run off its thinkers!

  6. Brian L,

    I didn’t know that they ran off their thinkers (well, I’m not a Pentecostal – so no inside info for me :D )

  7. @TC: Not always, but often. I have seen it. I know Gordon Fee has mentioned it (I think it was the article he did for Charisma Magazine). It can get vicious.

    I assume other Christian groups do it too, but I am not one with experience there (for the most part) since I have spent my time going from Pentecostal to non-denominational brand evangelical.

  8. Perhaps Brian Fulthorp knows more about what’s going on then. Yeah, I’ll have to check out that Fee interview again.

    So do you still consider yourself Pentecostal?

  9. @TC: I would say I am an Evangelical with a lot of Pentecostal influence (i.e. I am a continuationist, support charismatic gifting , high Pneumatology, expect miracles and signs and wonders [with qualifications], encourage freedom of expression in worship [though liturgy could benefit Pentecostalism to bring balance], tend to be “low-church” in my ecclesiology, welcome global Christian perspectives).

  10. Brian,

    You got to do better than that! I’m Southern Baptist with all of those. No denominational affiliation, then?

  11. As someone who is considering seminary, this is a bit of wisdom I very much appreciated. I think this is probably one thing common amongst my peers who are active in ministry; they exhaust themselves with all that they do merely because they didn’t seriously consider or prepare themselves for the long-haul of their ministry work. On one hand it may be needed, but on the other hand, it’s probably going to be devastating.
    Thanks Brian!

  12. I attended Calvary Chapel Bible College for a year (they are semi-charismatic doctrinally — like Foursquare somewhat); when I told fellow students there that I was heading off to Multnomah Bible College, I remember them telling me: (paraphrase) “oh brother, you better be careful that you don’t end up going somewhere where the Spirit is going to be quenched — be careful!” And Brain Broderson, heir apparent to the throne of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa (where I attended for a few yrs) and his father-in-law, Chuck Smith once said at a Calvary Chapel Pastors Conference: (paraphrase) “the greatest danger facing Calvary Chapel’s in the 21st century is “intellectualism.”

    True, there is indeed a modicum (if not more) of truth to the caution being provided; but unfortunately it’s not just “caution” but in fact full blown fear that motivates the above kind of sentiment. And ironically, what I’ve found (at least within Calvary Chapel) is that they still selectively promote certain forms of their own sanctified versions of “intellectualism,” and what often happens is that in place of “thinking” for themselves (in general) about Scripture and such “they” collapse all of this into particular popular and “charismatic” pastors within their movement — so you end up with a personality cultus that — at a low church function — ends up looking like they have a magesterium of “anointed” interpreters and even one who can speak ex cathedra (Chuck Smith).

    So the question then becomes “whose intellectualism, what intellectualism?” etc. Ironically, most of the people I went to the Bible College with at Calvary are now either hyper-Reformed, Baptists (which is what I grew up as CBA), or what have you (but not pentecostal or charismatic even). We actually have been attending a Calvary Chapel for the last year :-) .

  13. Brian, that’s a great definition of being a Pentecostal ;) I also agree with your analysis and conclusions. What really bugs me a great deal is this. If you are a Pastor why wouldn’t you want to learn as much as you can about the faith that you have embraced? Assuming one has the opportunities.

    TC, I’m definetlnly a Pentecostal in my beliefs and practices. The fellowship that I belong to no one is encouraged to pursue any Christian higher learning, nor is it discouraged. Other than myself, there must be less than 10 others, maybe even less than 5 that have or are pursuing high learning. Also it is not a requirement for being a pastor, so if it’s not a requirement why go? We are a highly evangelistic group, as are most Pentecostals and our churches are not made up of transferred Christians from other churches, most of the people that attend our churches more than likely accepted the Lord there. So they don’t have any knowledge of any sort of theological background. Most of our pastors do go through some theolgoical training at their churches, so it’s not like they don’t have any training. But at best it is at a very basic level.

    I have been making a strong effort to help change some of that culture, but it’s not easy. At my church we do have more than just some basic theological training, but that is only because I am there, if I wasn’t there it would fall by the way side. I have chosen to stay where I believe God has placed me and through friendships and relationships I am hoping to have enough influence to make some changes. You should come to one of our Pastors breakfast meetings, I think you would enjoy it and get a slightly different perspective.

  14. @TC: You’re a dangerous Southern Baptist. You’re a Southern Baptist sharing in some Pentecostal distinctives. Be careful!

    No, at this juncture, no denominational affiliation.

    @Jeremy: Sadly, I think many church leaders see business movers-and-shakers as their ideal leaders, and so they work for the church like a money making business person works for a business, and they try to build the church like a business, and this simply burns them out. Seminary can be a place where future pastors are reminded of the real aim of their vocation. In doing so they may avoid the errors of others who don’t take the time to think critically about what it means to serve the church.

    Bobby: Very true, it does not stop there from being a pseudo-intellectual “authority”, it just means that authority pushes his/her agenda through personality rather than actual, honest thinking on a matter. It sounds like we have had similar experiences!

    Robert: No kidding! I don’t understand pastors who take pride in the lie that what they know is sufficient. None of us have reached that point! Further education, at various levels, is essential.

  15. TC – it all just depends, I think there is a spectrum of thought about the value of theological education in Pentecostal circles and even then within the different groups – within the AG, it’s a broad spectrum and I think the most who are getting their masters in theology or the MDiv are the young people. It used to be that the average age of the seminarian was 30-35. Now it is more like 23-25 or something. I almost felt a little out of place! lol! More and more young people are just going straight from their undergrads right into seminary and this has its pluses and minuses but its a good trend so far as I am concerned. The reasons people in Pentecostal circles get higher education is really varied.

  16. Brian,

    Great post! You highlight the vocational endurance very well. To add to this, many people who come into seminary are pastoring; many of my classmates are pastors or leaders at their respective churches. Not only that but faculty are also pastors or have pastored—when I was looking at both Western and GFES, this is something that both admissions counselors mentioned to me. Seminary is such a different league than, say, the Bible college we came from (where people tended to go just to “get out of the house”), that I’m not surprised people in seminary tend to stay faithful to the church.

  17. Robert – thanks for that. Well, praying that you will indeed change the culture their and elsewhere.

    Brian L – well, recently I was reminded be our associational director that there is room for someone like me – so not too dangerious. :)

    Brian F – Thanks for filling me in. Well, one AG colleague of mine, age 31, is pursuing an M.Div. somewhere in Missouri. Can’t remember the name of the seminary.

  18. @Brian F: I have hope for the AOG. I admit that my story is embedded in the sectarian, anti-intellectualism of the so-called “Oneness” Pentecostals. Most of those leaders hate books not written by their own denominational publishing house. For goodness sake, the current president of the college I attended earlier in this decade has a GRE. That’s it! I can only imagine how terrible the classes are now. But the movement is happy because the school now teaches how to parrot dogma rather than how to use one’s brain.

    JohnDave: All very true. Bible college is a different beast altogether. Seminary functioned as what I wanted when I went to Bible college. Bible college is usually a youth conference with homework!

  19. Brian, you bring up one of the main reasons that had much to do with why I chose to study at KEDS, vs any other on-line institution. Although there are many introductory type of courses, the material presented is more similar to a Master’s degree here in the states. I am very impressed with the subject matter that is covered. When I looked at all of the schools for an Undergrad Theology degree they all seemed shallow, and way to basic to keep me interested. There are many pros and cons to on-line learning but at least one of them isn’t a shallow ciriculum. I could have enrolled at LIFE bible college, or the King’s College both here in the Los Angles area but they don’t come close to offering what KEDS does.

  20. Brian: Hilarious comment about Bible college!

    Robert: My brother was considering LIFE Bible (he’s a Foursquare person, and the pastor of the church came from LIFE). It does seem like a decent program, but it’s never wrong to go with the best you can get. You’ll be ready for a Master’s program if that door opens up.

  21. I don’t think the education I got in my undergrad at Multnomah really fits what you guys are saying about undergrads in general. Maybe Multnomah is one of the exceptions to the rule :-) .

  22. @Brian L – well the UPC pastor here at the Canyon is just finishing up his MDiv from the UPC seminary – he seems to have his head on straight and out of the norm. :-)

    also our current General Superintendent of the AG, George O. Wood, has a ThD from Fuller – probably an equivalent of a PhD today since he is in his 70′s and also has a Law degree – he pushes education hard, whereas most of his predecessors just have basic Bible college degrees. I think future General Sups will probably either have a Masters or DMin since so many young folk are just getting that kind of training. The AG is moving forward in a lot of ways. That said, there are still vast swaths of conservative folk in the AG (mainly in the south though not just there only) that don’t care much for “higher edjumacation.” :-)

  23. JohnDave, LIFE was easily in my top 3 of schools to chose from. The nice thing is that I could have continued my BTh with them on campus after completing enough credits on line. Let me explain what I mean by shallow so as to not misrepresent the school. Their theology courses were mostly bulit around their theology book “Foundations of Penetcostal Theology”, which is a fine book, however I had read that book numerous times over and wanted something different, something non-pentecostal. KEDS offered a program that has high emphasis on hermeneutics, and exegetical studies which was different than say just learning systematic theology an area that at least at this level I am very comfortable with, plus I didn’t want to do systematic theology, per se. Just clarifying as I don’t want to be misleading in my comment about LIFE bible college.

  24. @Bobby: If you got a good education you got something I didn’t get at my college! So there may be exceptions.

    @Brian F:: I think the most qualified professor at Urshan Graduate School of Theology is Dr. Daniel Segraves. I studied under him for four years when he was in Stockton. He is very intelligent. That being said, I am still skeptical about the overall “education” at UGST. Dr. David K. Bernard has had hand in that pot since its inception and he is the dogmatist of their movement and a very weak dogmatist at that!

  25. @Brian L – right, I was just sayin! lol! (I am ot in full agreement with him on a few things for obvious reasons), still it is our of the norm for him to have an MDiv and to be here at the Park out of his normal circles of influence. I understand your skepticism completely. He’s a good guy though.

  26. Bobby: From my angle, Brian and I were talking about our own undergraduate institution. I’m am sure your experience and education at Multnomah was miles ahead of what I experienced.

    Robert: Don’t worry, I didn’t take it as a comment against the quality of education LIFE or King’s. Part of the reason I chose GFES was because of its multi-/inter-denominational features. I know that the other seminaries in the area have excellent and quality programs, but I too wanted something a little different—particularly in that GFES had the only degree that allowed me to basically pick-and-choose 21 credits of my courses and basically build my own program. I just had more flexibility to pursue my interests—and believe me, my interests are very diverse! :-)

  27. @John,

    I see that, and I think I can probably relate, apparently, with you guys in regards to my undergrad experience at Calvary Chapel Bible College (it was actually a great experience, devotionally, all of my “instructors” were CC pastors . . . and basically our classes were like listening to sermons except augmented with a text-book — although one of my instructors there, David Hocking, has a couple of credible PhD’s and is a well known Bible Teacher http://www.davidhocking.org [he's not your usual Calvary Chapel proper kind of guy though]).

    Where did you go to undergrad, and for that matter where did Brian go?

  28. @Bobby: Usually I don’t like to talk about it. It is a semi-failed institution; a (Bible) “college” that has back-peddled into a “ministry-training” institute under a dictator president with a GRE GED for an education (literally). All the professors with degrees (Ph.D’s, D.Min’s, MA’s) have left (mostly because of him). It failed its pursuit of accreditation and now it barely has State approval as a learning institute. Finally, it is under the banner of the United Pentecostal Church International, a “Oneness” Pentecostal organization. It is called Christian Life College and it is based in Stockton, CA. Horrible, horrible place.

  29. Brian,

    I am really sorry to hear about your experience! It sounds like the kind of place that should fail, then. My experience at Calvary Chapel Bible College certainly does sound different than your’s even. Calvary Chapel is definitely “sound” when it comes to doctrine (on the essentials, i.e. Trinitarian etc.); my issues there were more “social” than “doctrinal” (although I don’t believe in the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” as usually interpreted in charismatic settings etc).

    Well, I’m glad that you have found solid footing through Western :-) ! You definitely have an insight into the Oneness stuff that many of us don’t have, and I’m sure the Lord can use your education to speak back into that situation when the occasion emerges.

    Thanks for sharing a bit though.

  30. @Bobby: No worries, I just blush a little talking about it. Western Seminary was gracious when they took me into their MABTS and I owe the institution much for giving me a chance to continue my education after wasting all my time in Stockton. Of course, it was in Stockton that I met people who knew of Western Seminary as well as the man who would eventually become my pastor and whom I will always consider my pastor. So it was redeemed, but I just like to live as if I was never there otherwise! :)

  31. @Brian: Do you mean “GED” instead of “GRE”? :-) Coming back to the opening post and mine, I think some pastors are anti-seminary because they think seminary is the reason that members leave an their church(es).

    @Bobby: When Brian and I were there, we did have Daniel Segraves who is most biblically solid than most anyone in the UPCI. He was also a Western alumnus and I thank Segraves for being an influence in my pursuit of higher education in the realm of theology and biblical studies.

  32. @JohnDave: Their both frauds! GRE, GED, whatever. :)

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  34. @Brian,

    Yeah, I’m glad Western allowed you to go on for your studies with them as well; we’re all the richer for it :-) . And I agree both GRE and the GED’s are frauds, although I think I would even weight the GRE with even more fraudulence ;-) . . . GED’s can be made valuable, just depends on the individual. But I catch what you’re saying :-) .

    @JohnDave,

    Okay, that’s the connection between you and Brian; well, there’s another plus then to your guys’ experience at Stockton :-) . And you both are now Trinitarians, even better!

  35. @Bobby: Very true. I take it back. The GED is better than the GRE unless you are president of a college. Is there a better way to tell prospective students that your college is no longer a college than with the line, “Oh, and by the way, our president never graduated from high school. He thinks educations leads you away from God.”

  36. @Brian,

    Yeah, that is really amazing; I’ve never heard of such a thing (a President of a college with a GED). Then of course, Jesus never had any degrees (that I know of) ;-) .

  37. @Bobby: Trust me, he is no Jesus. He makes Pat Robertson look sane. Total wacko.

  38. @Brian,

    That’s crazy-talk . . . scary.

  39. @Bobby: Crazy is the operative word!

  40. Late to the party, again… but I have a calling from God to speak words of life. I thought it meant preaching, or maybe teaching, but at present I’m not sure. Rather than trying to out-think or out-plan the one calling me, I am in the process of learning to shut up and listen, and do what prep I can as led while I wait for the next sign on the road he’s leading me on. I have very mixed feelings about seminary, but this post is actually very helpful. The negative side for me is all the bogus intellectualism and justification of bad doctrine just because its ingrained tradition. I’ve spoken to plenty of seminary graduates (mostly pastors) who either don’t know certain things, don’t care about those things, or do know and refuse to stand up or at least acknowledge what they know. Truth is churned in the grist mill of intellectualism. Those who get a cup full of Spirit after submitting an arbor of anointing to mill are truly fortunate. It seems as if reality gets checked at the door, or least this was the case of one pastor who took over the pulpit as a fresh graduate at one of my previous churches. On the other hand, it is important to be well rounded and well grounded and fully committed. The seminary graduate has already demonstrated a capacity to remain steadfast through trial and struggle. Were I to be handed a pulpit today would my history suggest competence or qualification? Unlikely. Oh, I feel pretty proud of myself when it comes to biblical knowledge, but doctrine is only part of the picture. Without certain other learned skills the unschooled pastor is in deep water. To have such responsibility as the shepherd has is great and terrible. The trick, in the end, is discernment and obedience. Peter and John were relatively uneducated fish mongers whereas Paul and Luke were highly educated men. In the end I say – who am I to judge a man by his pedigree? When Jesus opens the book of life he will see the record of love, not the GPA associated with our name.

  41. @Lance: It is very true that we will not be judged by our seminary education. I don’t think our choice to get a seminary education should be centered on whether or not we will find the acceptance of others, but whether or not we think we have given our best in preparing to serve others. Some do not see seminary as necessary in that area, but many do, and that is the most important tipping point for making the decision to go or not to go.

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